Library Talks: Hillary Rodham Clinton with Jennifer Weiner

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On this episode of Library Talks, Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton sits down with author Jennifer Weiner to discuss books, politics, and much more.

Clinton is a key figure in electoral politics and the author of ten best-selling books, including a mystery novel co-written with Louise Penny and two books co-written with her daughter, Chelsea. She is also the host of the podcast, You and Me Both, in which she is joined by guests who fascinate her in order to tackle the topics that shape our lives, from faith and family to cooking and literature.

[ Music ]

[Aidan Flax-Clark:] Hello and thanks for listening to another episode of Library Talks, the podcast from the New York Public Library, where we bring you recordings of some of the best conversations that we present here at the library. My name is Aidan Flax-Clark and I'm the director of the cultural programming series, Live from NYPL. Hillary Clinton is on the show today. The former Secretary of State, US Senator, and First Lady joined us at the library recently for a candid and in-depth conversation about everything from politics to literature to family and a whole lot more. Hillary Clinton has been pretty busy since she won the popular vote in the 2016 presidential election. Despite losing the presidency, she's remained a key figure in electoral politics, including founding Onward Together, which advances progressive values and encourages people to organize, get involved, and run for office. She's also the author of 10 best-selling books, including recently a mystery novel co-written with Louise Penny called State of Terror and she also hosts her own podcast, You and Me Both, where she interviews a wide range of guests who fascinate her. Secretary Clinton spoke with best-selling novelist Jennifer Weiner. Jen is the number one New York Times best-selling author of 21 books, including The Breakaway, The Summer Place, That Summer, Big Summer, Mrs. Everything, In Her Shoes, and Good in Bed. They began, not surprisingly, talking about writing novels, so here's Jennifer Weiner talking to Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[ Applause ]

[Jennifer Weiner:] Thank you. I'm Jennifer.

[ Laughter ]

In case anybody was confused. I'm so delighted to be here. I'm so delighted to be in a library. Spent a lot of my formative years here. The last time we were together, you had written memoir, you had written nonfiction, you've now written a novel with Louise Penny. I wonder if you could talk to us about the difference, the pivot from nonfiction to fiction, what it's like to make things up, all of it. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh, thanks so much, Jennifer, and like you, I am thrilled to be in a library. And I want to thank Tony Marx and the entire library staff for everything they do every day. And it's a little odd for me who has co-written one fiction book to be talking to this woman about writing fiction and yet I'll give her a try. It is such a different experience. And part of the reason it is a different experience is that in collaborating with Louise Penny, who, if you haven't read her extraordinary series, the Gamache books, please do give yourself that treat. And she's a friend of mine and when we were asked if we would try our hand at writing something together, I told her, I said, you know, I've never done this and you've never collaborated. You're a best-selling author, but you've never worked with anybody else. I don't want to sacrifice our friendship over trying to, you know, shoehorn ourselves together into a book. But eventually we decided to give it a try and we came up with a plot that had, guess what, a woman secretary of state as the protagonist. A woman of a certain age, though, and who is the, you know, the heroine, along with her best friend, who is by her side. And three things were different. One, you know, clearly, we wanted it to be right, but I wasn't sweating over it being fact-checked to the nth degree. Yeah, a little more room for imagination and creativity and, you know, we had a little bit of trouble as Ellen Adams, the Secretary of State, is whizzing around the world trying to prevent a catastrophe, for those of you who haven't read it, I won't go any further, and we had -- I kept saying to Louise, you know, but Louise, you can't get from here to Pakistan in, you know, 4 and 1/2 hours and then it feels -- well just make it as real as you can make it. So, we did a lot of that. The other thing is, you know, I love to read what writers write about their writing. And I often would read where a writer would say something like I didn't know where the plot was going until my characters took me there. And I would read that and I think, that's ridiculous. You're writing it, of course you know where your characters are taking you. But I, working with, you know, a wonderful writer like Louise, no, we did not know. And because we were both kind of going back and forth, you know, she'd say, I got up really early this morning and I just couldn't help myself. They wanted to go to Iran. And I said, oh, OK. So, all right, we'll add that. But it was such a different experience. And then finally, you know, the story has a story embedded in it, which is kind of about our current political situation, as you might guess, for me. And so, trying to keep the balance between driving the main plot, but also connecting it to what's happening in our democracy and around the world, you know, was another sort of fascinating feature. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] I have never had a character tell me it wanted to go to Iran. Like, feeling a little -- 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] They want to go to the beach. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] A little -- right? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] They want to go on bike rides. They want to have sex with strangers. I don't know.

[ Laughter ]

[Jennifer Weiner:] But I wanted to ask about Ellen, because as you said, she's a woman of a certain age and I wanted to read a quote. Maureen Corrigan reviewed your book and wrote, suspense, let alone political suspense, is still pretty much a White man's game. Most often when female characters occupy a lead role in suspense, they've stumbled into it. Now, Ellen Adams is a powerhouse who did not wander accidentally into the job. She is a media mogul turned possibly political sacrificial pawn, don't want to give too much away. And, you know, she's dealing with a lot of middle-aged woman stuff that is going to be familiar to a lot of middle-aged women readers. She is saving the world in mascara that runs and Spanx that pinch. And you make it clear that she is being judged for her appearance like a lot. She's being dismissed, she's being written off, things are being noticed about her that maybe wouldn't be noticed about male politicians. So, I'm wondering, was Ellen always going to be a woman? Was she always going to be a woman of a certain age? You know, and how much of this was sort of deliberate commentary on the world in which we live? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] All of the above. It was always going to be a woman and when, you know, Louise said, well, you know, write -- you know, we have to write about something that, you know, we're familiar with. And I was familiar with being a middle-aged Secretary of State. So I could draw from all that experience and I could also kind of laugh about it because, you know, we didn't want to have a woman hero or protagonist who, you know, was in Lycra and kicking down doors and somersaulting over, you know, 20 bad guys in order to save the world. I could not write that experience. So, we thought, all right, we want somebody who is smart and because of the life she's led, can figure out what's really going on with all these other characters, all of whom were men, with one exception. So, I thought about experiences I have. Like one time when I was Secretary of State, I showed up in Bulgaria, in Sofia, and I'd been on the road, which I usually was for a number of days and it had been pretty exhausting. But, you know, I kind of summoned the energy, get off the plane, and I have to go right to the meeting with the then prime minister. And so I have longer hair and, you know, I pulled it back. I thought it looked fine.

[ Laughter ]

I put on some makeup -- 

[Jennifer Weiner:] This is when the horror music would start. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah, [inaudible]. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] If this was a horror movie, this was when you'd be like, the heroine would be approaching the basement door and you'd be thinking, don't go down there. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah, you do the best you can with, you know, what you've got. And so, I show up and I, you know, ushered into the room and meeting all of the officials and I'd sit across. The way you do bilateral meetings is, you know, your team's on one side, the other country's team is on the other side. So, I'm sitting there and usually the host will open the meeting. The prime minister's like staring at me. And this is getting a little uncomfortable. And I finally said, Mr. Prime Minister, is there something wrong? He goes, I don't know. Is there? I said, I don't know. I said, is there something you want to raise? He goes, well, I was told if you pulled your hair back, you were in a bad mood.

[ Laughter ]

I said, no. I'm sorry, Mr. Prime Minister. I just been flying all night." 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Is that true? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] No. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Is that like your tell? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] No. I don't know. I mean, it's like -- the things people read into women's appearances as you know are quite, you know, extraordinary and varied. But so, I wanted Ellen to be real with, you know, yeah, you're on a plane for three days trying to save the world, negotiate a deal, get something done. You know, maybe the mascara will run and you've got some other challenges you have to overcome. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] I loved it. And especially -- now, did you watch Reacher on Amazon Prime? Did you -- yes? You are familiar? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, that's one of my husband's favorites. No surprise, you know. You could just -- so here's Ellen Adams, my heroine, thinking, how do we outsmart him? And here's Reacher, just like knocking 10 people out of the way. You know, it's a whole different genre. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] I -- for those of you who haven't seen Reacher or read the Lee Child series of books on which Reacher is based, Reacher is basically the size of a small country. And just, you know, he's bulletproof. He's like -- I think he does get shot at several points and it just doesn't even slow him down. So, I was very gratified to read somebody who felt much more nuanced and much more real than the sort of typical, you know, Jason Bourne, like circling the world in a day and a half and never shaving or -- it's just -- yes. I mean, there's a place for those books and there's a place for Reacher. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I read them. I really enjoy them. But I think there's got to be more room for other, you know, other kinds of thrillers that do feature women. I mean, we have had, you know, three women secretaries of state and we used to, you know, have lots of fun getting together. There's a famous picture of Madeleine Albright and me meeting in the only private place we could find when we were together in Prague which was the ladies' room. So, you know, you kind of -- you pick up on these experiences and try to make it part of the broader landscape of what's actually going on behind the scenes. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] So, you really do come to understand reading this book that Ellen has two jobs, right? One is to actually do the job that she has and the other is to look a certain way. And I'm wondering, all these years, you know, all these years of feminism, why are we still laboring under these double standards? And what do we do not to pass them down to the next generation of women? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh, my gosh, how much time do we have? And -- 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Thirty-six minutes.

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah.

[ Laughter ]

You know, I think about this all the time. And you know, I just was doing a Zoom into a meeting of a group of young people and they were asking me questions and that was one of the questions. I'm a young woman. I'm, you know -- I'd like to, you know, really do well in my job but I just feel that, you know, there's so many expectations about how I'm supposed to look, how I'm supposed to behave. I mean, the only good news is that we're at least talking about all of that. And, you know, that is different from when like I was a young lawyer back in the day. And, you know, we dressed in this sort of really ridiculous way, you know. It was like navy skirt suits and white blouses and occasionally a blue ribbon tied around your neck so it would look sort of like a tie. I mean, really. And, you know, we were making it up as we went and thankfully there's so much more room for women and men to be who they are and to, you know, live their lives and kind of make choices about how they want to appear to the world. But it still is a big -- it's still a big challenge. And I think we have to keep talking about it and we have to give, you know, young women and young men, you know, permission to, you know, be more authentic as they, you know, feel most comfortable. But, yeah, I see it all the time and I wish that I could -- and I will say this, I wish it was not such a problem online. I mean, the misogyny online is breathtaking/ And I have met with so many women, particularly in politics, government. But not just there, even business, academia, entertainment, you name it. And the way they are attacked and it's all deliberate to try to tear them down, it's pretty -- it can be pretty scary. So, we've got a lot to do to deal with, you know, the problems that we didn't have to think about years ago, particularly online problems, but try to keep moving forward so we aren't so judgmental about women and their appearance. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] So in -- yes.

[ Applause ]

Clapping. In State of Terror there is an ex-president who lives in a gilded palace in West Palm Beach.

[ Laughter ]

He is a large florid man. And at one point, Ellen describes his breath as smelling like meat.

[ Laughter ]

I want to talk about wish fulfillment and catharsis and like which -- I mean, what was the most fun and cathartic part of this book to write? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, first of all, I have to say, this is a book of fiction.

[ Laughter ]

There -- no character is actually based on anyone else, but clearly you pick characteristics of people that might fit. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] This is what we in the business call plausible deniability. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. You know, there were several best parts of the book. I mean one is that we wrote it through COVID, which, you know, is still we're living with the after effects of COVID, at least I think we are. I think we're still in a kind of post-traumatic stress disorder period. But it was, you know, a very difficult time for our country and the world. But Louise and I had this project so we could talk about, you know, all of the ways of getting ourselves out of our own little, you know, houses into some other reality. But the other thing about it is I meant to tell two sort of serious stories. One, not to -- it won't give anything away to say when Louise finally said to me, she said, well, if we're going to do a thriller about a woman secretary of state, what kept you up at night? And I said, well, I had a very long list that kept me up at night. But one was nuclear weapons falling into the hands of terrorists and rogue states. And so that's a theme that runs through the book. And the other was the deliberate effort to tear down our democracy from the inside. And so, when you are sworn into office as a secretary of state and other official positions in our government, you take an oath, you know, to protect and defend our Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. So, this had both foreign and domestic enemies because, frankly, I think we faced foreign and domestic enemies at this point in our history. And it's a -- you know, it's a problem that we have to be honest about and try to figure out, you know, how we can bring the country back together again and how we can, you know, withstand what are very deliberate efforts to undermine democracy around the world. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] So, I want to ask the process question. How do you write a novel with somebody else? Like you would brainstorm on Zoom and then go off and write by yourself. Like how did it happen? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, the first thing we did was we wrote a 19-page single spaced outline. Now, I am an outline kind of person, in case you couldn't have guessed that. And Louise is not. I mean, Louise is a I get up in the morning, make myself a cup of coffee, and just start writing, you know, very early in the morning until early afternoon. So, we did the outline and then we kind of began to divide it up. But what I said earlier was really true. There were numerous occasions. We'd be, you know, sending drafts back and forth. We'd be on FaceTime and Zoom, you know, talking about the drafts. And at one point she did, she said, I'm so sorry, I just couldn't stop. And I thought that was so wonderful. I mean, I just couldn't stop, she said. And there were a couple of times like that. And then, you know, I would -- in that event, I'd be editing what she then sent me and trying to figure out the hours it took to fly from place to place and all the little, you know, details. But it turned out to be such a personally rewarding experience, in part because we did know each other so well. We weren't two strangers that had been thrown together and had to get to know each other while we were writing. And the other thing I want to say about it is I had -- we started writing in the late fall of 2019. And that year, I had lost two of my good friends, one of them being my best friend from childhood and one of my brothers. So, I had suffered a lot of personal loss. And so, when we were thinking of the characters, I was thinking about my two really wonderful friends, Ellen and Betsy. So, Ellen is kind of -- many of her attributes inform the character of Ellen, the Secretary of State. And my dear friend from sixth grade, Betsy, is like the best friend that is, you know, has been by Ellen's side since they were children. And actually, for me, because I was incredibly, just really so sad and disoriented from losing three people, one in -- you know, literally one in May, one in June, one in July, I just thought, wow, this is a great way to honor them. And I called Ellen's daughter and asked permission and I called Betsy's husband and children and asked permission. So, it was a very personal experience and in the best possible way for me. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] That's -- it's such a tribute to this book that the friendship feels as essential as this plot. Like you're racing against the clock and there's terrible things happening, but these two women always have each other's backs. And I loved it. And it's just -- it's not something you see in this genre a whole lot. Like Reacher has no friends. Like --

[ Laughter ]

-- he maybe ate them. I don't know, but -- 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well he doesn't even live anywhere. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Well, that's right, he doesn't -- 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I mean toothbrush and an ATM card-- 

[Jennifer Weiner:] My daughter's out there somewhere. Phoebe [assumed spelling], don't live like that. That's not good. So, what kinds of thrillers do you read or mysteries like -- and who were the first readers as you're writing this? Who are you showing it to? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, I read a lot of mysteries. You know, I read Reacher, you know. Bill and I have on each side of our bed, you know, bedside tables. And they are always stacked with books. And when he finishes something he thinks I'd like, he brings it over, adds it to the stack. And I do the same for him. And, of course, you know, he's had the most extraordinary experience because he's written, as you know, several books now. And so, I -- several fiction books. And honestly, we both love mystery. But I also -- I really -- like I just finished Tana French's latest book, The Hunter, last night. And, you know, I just love reading mysteries by women as well as men, obviously. And I also like reading period mysteries. Like, I'm a huge fan of Jacqueline Winspear and her Maisie Dobbs series. I love, you know, the whole ambiance and settings of, you know, pre-World War I, World War I into the, you know, 1920s of London. So, I read a lot of different genres, but I do love mysteries. And so when I write something, you know, Bill is my first reader. And I'm currently working on a book, a nonfiction book right now. And so I always ask him to read, he does the same to me because he's actually finishing, you know, two books right now. And one is nonfiction, one is fiction. And so, we do -- we talk a lot about the books we read, the books that, you know, we're writing, how do we, you know, solve certain problems. And I just really -- that's a big part of our lives. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] So, I do have some fun questions, I promise, but I want to ask one more serious one. Talking about narrative, it feels like we are stuck in a version of Groundhog Day, where Donald Trump will be running for president forever. And White women will still be supporting him. The great luxury of being a storyteller is that you can write or rewrite the ending that feels the most satisfying. If you could rewrite this current moment, perhaps going back seven and a half years or so --

[ Applause ]

-- how would you do it? How do we, the participants in the story of America's democracy, get ourselves out of this loop? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, you know, first of all, we get ourselves out of the loop by making sure he is never president ever again. That is the most important mission.

[ Applause ]

And, you know, I know this is not a political event, so I will simply say I am for the current president both on the merits, because I actually think he's done a really good job under very difficult circumstances.

[ Applause ]

And I'm also for him because the alternative is terrifying. So, I really -- I think in, you know, in politics -- and actually Biden has a good, you know, a phrase he uses a lot, you know, when you've got two candidates running, don't compare one to the almighty, compare him to the alternative. And I think we have a pretty clear idea of what could happen because he's telegraphing it. It's not -- nobody -- you know, people could have been -- they shouldn't have been, but they could have been surprised back the first time he ran. But then, you know, we've seen not only what he did, but also what he says he wants to do. And so I hope that people take him both seriously and literally and realize that we would not recognize our country. So, the imperative is to make sure someone -- this is not about issues, you know, this is about, you know, the quality of the candidates and the decisions that they have to make. And, you know, when COVID struck, I mean, the irresponsibility of the decision-making cost lives. And that was a crisis. And people had to, you know, really kind of fend for themselves, which is, I think, part of the reason why there's still so much overhang of, you know, real unresolved emotion about it. So I'm actually optimistic, but only if people take it really to heart that they have to turn out and they have to vote and vote literally for the future of the country and the future of what we care about. And I think it'll turn out OK if we do that.

[ Applause ]

 

[Jennifer Weiner:] So, during the pandemic, some of us baked banana bread and others of us wrote novels and also began producing Broadway shows. Tell us about Suff, how -- tell us about the show, how you got involved. Do you need any tiny assistant stage managers? Because my daughter is finishing up at NYU very soon. She's very small, doesn't take up much space. Good at what she does, I think. But talk about the show. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, in the summer of 2022, I went to the public theater to see the world premiere of Suff, this musical about the American suffragists and how we finally, finally, finally got the right to vote. And I was just so delighted that a part of American history that is rarely included in textbooks except maybe there might be a line which say and then in 1920, the 19th Amendment finally passed and women got the right to vote. But the struggle that had gone on for so many decades before has not been part of the usual American history courses. And so I saw it and I was just delighted that it was taking this issue on. And then about a year, you know, or so later, the extraordinary young woman, Shaina Taub, who has written it, she's kind of like the Lin-Manuel Miranda for women's history. I mean, she has taken this on, she's written, you know, the whole musical, all the songs, and it was just so exciting. She wrote and she asked if I would, you know, try to support what they were doing because they were making, you know, as you do, making a lot of changes to try to move it from the public to Broadway. And I said, I would love to see you do that. And so, you know, I got involved and, you know, I can't claim to have any great musical theater ability other than that I love to go and I loved the theater. And -- but I would give her notes, as they say. You know, I'd say, well, I don't know, what about doing this? And she was so patient and so tolerant. But fast forward, it's now, you know, just opened, the first review performance -- preview performance was last night. It opens formally on April 18th. And I am telling you, it is such a great story. It's thrilling and exciting and it has real people that are portrayed by these amazing, you know, actors. And I just am so proud of her and so proud of telling this story and playing a very small role in it. And so, yeah, I am in full theater mode, you know. I'm -- I am just excited to be part of something like this and I want people to see it because I want people to know the story, but I also want them to see how the friendships are real, the sense of sisterhood are real. They don't -- they don't, you know, shy away from taking on the, you know, the challenge when they were going to have a march in 1913, first march ever for women's suffrage in the world. And you know, Ida B. Wells from Chicago, this crusading African-American journalist who had taken on the subject of lynching and had gotten run out of Memphis, she shows up with the delegation from Illinois and she says, we want to march and oh, you know, some of the women suffragists are saying oh, my gosh, you know, that'll alienate people that we need in the congress to vote -- to put the amendment out to the states. And she says, well, I'm marching. And she does. And I mean, the whole thing has such a ring of, you know, authenticity and, you know, the passion of these women. And of course, it's a particularly important story to tell right now because we take the vote for granted. We don't show up and vote. These women went to prison. Some of them were force fed because they went on hunger strikes in prison. And I think we owe it to them as well as ourselves to make sure we keep marching and voting. And making our voices heard because it matters.

[ Applause ]

 

[Jennifer Weiner:] I'm wondering which of the suffragettes you identify with the most. If you could play one of them, which would it be? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, when you -- when I hope you all go to see the musical, the three main characters are Ida B. Wells, who I just mentioned. Alice Paul, who is the real central driving character of the musical, who is young and aggressive and had spent time in England. And she saw what was happening there as women were really engaging in civil disobedience all the time to try to get the vote in England. And then Carrie Chapman Catt, who had been literally doing this for, you know, 30 or 40 years. And what's fascinating about it is you see the inside, outside push and pull of trying to get change made. And it is -- you know, for me, I'm a little bit of both. I mean I get impatient, like Alice Paul does and wonder why are we still arguing over, you know, universal healthcare? I mean, really. Or why are we still, you know, doubting climate change? I mean things that are so self-evident. But on the other hand, I admire and relate to Carrie Catt, who said, look, you know, it doesn't happen because you want it to happen. You got to go person by person and make the case. And you see how those two different approaches really in the end kind of come together to get it done. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Have you taken your grandkids to see the show? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Not yet, but I'm going to. I'm going to, yes. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Have you like -- are you the grandma -- the Broadway grandma who like takes them to the shows? Is that your thing? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yes, I do. And, you know, the first, of course, the first, you know, show that I ever took my granddaughter to was Frozen. And she kept looking around because, of course, she'd seen the movie about 185 times. And she kept saying, well, where's the real Frozen? You know. And I said, yeah, it's right up there on the stage. So we kind of got that all worked out. But, yeah, I love to take -- I love to take them. And we -- well, it just opened for previews last night. So, we got -- I hope, a very long run to go and get everybody there. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Excellent. I've only heard the best things. I'm very excited to see it. And I think that Broadway is still, as you know, struggling to come back and get to where it was before the pandemic. So I think it's important if you are able to go see a show. OK. Yeah.

[ Applause ]

We have audience questions coming up. But now I want to ask, let's do a little bit of a lightning round here. Which of Donald Trump's four indictments do you personally find the most gratifying?

[ Laughter and Applause ]

 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I am not answering that question.

[ Laughter ]

 

[Jennifer Weiner:] OK, fair. What are you binge watching, cooking, and buying at Sephora? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, let's see. We just finished binging, something you probably have never heard of, but I'll go ahead and share it with you. It's a French series called Astrid. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Oh, my people. Oh, yay. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I mean, we loved it. And it's about an autistic woman in Paris whose particular talents are put to use by homicide detectives. And it's just an extraordinary detailed story about how she becomes able to relate to people and connect with them and contribute at the same time and use her photographic memory of old criminal cases and clues to, you know, help solve crimes. I absolutely love it. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] OK. So that was binging. Now we have eating. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Cooking? 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Cooking, eating. I'll take either one. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] That is really an unfair question. Cooking, you know, I'm actually not cooking very much at all.

[ Applause ]

In part because I'm trying not to eat so much. Does that make sense? And so, you know, I'm kind of on a rotation where I'm eating the same things over and over again. It's really sort of boring, but -- and I don't see any results anyway. But nevertheless, that's what I'm doing. And then, you know, I am -- you know, I have fallen prey to occasionally buying things on Instagram that really look good on the people that are wearing them on Instagram. And I would say I'm probably batting about 40%. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] That's about 30% better than the rest of us. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh, my gosh. Well, you don't know what I'm buying. I mean -- but, you know, I see something and I think, oh, that's really -- you know, maybe I'll try that. But I like to buy in stores, so I don't do a whole lot of online shopping because I like to go and see things and especially if it's clothes or even makeup, if I haven't tried it before, I like to, you know, sort of experience it that way. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Best piece of advice you got as a young woman and now give to young women? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, probably two pieces of advice from my mother, who had a tough life and had to be, you know, really resilient in her own life. And she would always, you know, say to me, you know, if you're knocked down, you have to get back up. And I don't care how many times you get knocked down, you have to keep getting back up. And the other thing she would say is, "You have a choice to make. You can live your own life and, you know, feel that you are doing the best you can or you can be constantly trying to adjust to other people's expectations about you. And I hope you're always living your own life. And, you know, I try to tell, you know, young women something along those lines as well.

[ Applause ]

 

[Jennifer Weiner:] All right. Now we have the audience questions. The first one says, thank you, Secretary Clinton, for your service and love of our country. You are a hero to me.

[ Applause ]

If you were 13 years old again, what would you do or study to prepare for your future? What would you do again? What would you avoid? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh, my gosh. Great question. Yeah, 13 is a kind of inflection point in your life as a girl, I think. There are -- I don't have a lot of regrets in my life, but I think I wish I knew another language. I wish I were bilingual and I'm not. And I wish that I had, you know, stayed in a more organized way in some kind of athletics or, you know, regular exercise rather than, you know, taking 10 years off and then doing it for a while and then taking 10 years off and doing it again. So I told you two things, if I had been able to pick up a language and if I -- my daughter who's run, you know, two marathons and runs every day and is just unbelievably, you know, fit and everything. Yeah, I think that would have been a good thing. But, you know, I didn't know anybody who ran when I was growing up. I mean, except on a track. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Generally, they were being chased. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah, you're being chased. But, you know, it's such a different time. I mean, we didn't -- I mean people didn't run for pleasure or for fitness unless they were on the track team. So I wish I could have sort of seen into the future on that. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] OK. This is a question. What is your advice for a woman running for public office today? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, first of all, thank you for considering running for public office. And I think, you know, a couple of things. One, just be prepared. I mean, know why you're running. Know what you want to do if you get elected. If you're comfortable speaking in public, practice so that you get better and more concise and more focused. And if you're not comfortable, practice so that you do get comfortable because you're going to have to present yourself and be in situations where that's required. I think it's also important to have people you trust give you good advice about how you're coming across and, you know, whether you're connecting with people and whether your story about why you're running is, you know, really, you know, making a difference in how people perceive you. And then, I guess, you know, finally, you know, take criticism seriously but not personally. And by that, I mean, you know, you can learn things from your critics. You can be shielded from your, you know, from mistakes or from, you know, failure by your friends, your family. But a critic who comes at it from the right perspective, you know, can actually reveal something to you. But that doesn't mean you take it personally. Because a lot of the criticism you will be subjected to is not meant to make you better, it's to tear you down. And so don't give in to that and don't be, you know, really affected so that you lose your confidence. And just, you know, really get out there and enjoy it. I mean, I really did enjoy, particularly when I ran for the senate here in New York, we had a great time traveling around the state, all five boroughs, everywhere, from one end to the other, and just meeting people and listening to their stories. And I think it's a great adventure. So if you're willing to do it, get prepared and go ahead and give it a try.

[ Applause ]

 

[Jennifer Weiner:] You are such a big inspiration to women, but what women do you look up to? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh, that's great. You know, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, because we do not remember any lessons. She actually -- we were in school together. We don't remember any lessons in elementary school or high school about women in history other than like Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I, Martha Washington, you know, just a very few women. And I learned about women not in school but by reading Life magazine every week. And you have to be of a certain age. But that magazine would come to my house every week and it was a big magazine with great photographs in it. And I'd come home from school and be sitting there on the table and I would read it faithfully. And that's where I learned about Eleanor Roosevelt, Amelia Earhart, Margaret Chase Smith, Margaret Bourke-White. I mean, I -- Maria Tallchief. I had a lot of exposure to women who I read about and really admired by reading in the magazines. And there weren't even that many television shows back in the 1950s about women. I remember there was a television show about a couple of women that -- you know, Anne Frank, I think there was a program about Anne Frank. And so you were not given a lot of material to work with. So, I admired a lot of these women and tried to learn from them. And then when I was much older, one of my mentors was Marian Wright Edelman, a Black woman lawyer who started the Children's Defense Fund. And you know, I just admired her so much. I worked for her. And I really looked up to her as well as I still do today. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] OK. An audience, that's -- yes. And if anyone is interested in Life magazine, I happen to know that its photo archives are on Instagram and libraries are great places to find old issues of things. I happen to know. An audience member asks, can you talk about moving forward after defeat, both on a personal and public level? How does that sit with you today? How does that sit with you today? So moving on from defeat, personal and public level. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Well, you do have to move on. That is, you know, part of life. And if you've had setbacks, whether they are personal and private or whether they are very public, you have a decision to make. And obviously I've had my share of setbacks, disappointments, failures that I've had to, you know, come to terms with and make decisions about. But I think if you are able to feel that you -- you know, you did what you did for the right reason, you tried as hard as you could, you really believed in what you were doing. I mean, all of those things are -- you know, they don't protect you from, you know, waking up in the middle of the night saying, oh, I wish I'd done that or why did we do that? Or, oh my gosh, how come I didn't handle that right? That's all kind of the background music. But ultimately, if you want to continue leading a purposeful life, however you define that, you've got to get back up again. And you can't ruminate about your defeats because it takes up too much space in your head. You've got to be thinking about what am I going to do today and tomorrow that will make a difference, that will give me satisfaction, that will make me feel like I'm, you know, living a worthwhile life and making a contribution. So that's how I think about it. And it -- you know, I'm not saying it's easy, you snap your fingers, and all of a sudden, you know, you're over it. No. Everything you've done, everything you've experienced, every challenge you've ever faced, you know, that continues to carry with you, but learn the lessons from them and don't let them overwhelm your life. You know, too many people I've known since I've lived a long time now, they get overwhelmed by something they failed at. Maybe it's a relationship, maybe it's a job, maybe it's a book that nobody would publish, whatever it is. And you know, that can just totally derail you from, you know, figuring out how to keep going forward despite that loss or that disappointment. And you have to have enough resilience to be honest enough with yourself saying, yeah, I didn't -- you know what, I didn't succeed. I didn't make it. I didn't -- you know, I wish I'd done better, but I did the best I could. And then, OK, so what am I going to do next? And I think, you know, for me, I get up every day and I think about what am I going to do next? And I'm very lucky because I have a lot of, you know, wonderful people in my life and I have a lot of exciting work that I do at the Clinton Foundation and, you know, podcasts or writing books or my political work that I support people running and the organizations that they are forming to make a difference and I get a lot of satisfaction out of that.

[ Applause ]

 

[Jennifer Weiner:] So Pam [assumed spelling], a librarian, wants to know what book or books are you reading now or recently finished that you liked? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] So, I just finished The Burgess Boys by Elizabeth Strout. I love Elizabeth Strout and all of her Olive and Olive Kitteridge and everything that she's written. And like I said, I just finished Tana French's book, The Hunter. And I'm sort of like, you know, about a third of the way through a fascinating history of the Silk Road, which, you know, frankly, I didn't know a whole lot about. And so, I like to alternate between fiction and nonfiction and kind of get a good mix of, you know, new and interesting ideas. And I guess last week I finished Ann Patchett, you know, Tom Lake, which I also really love. So, I mean, I have a pretty eclectic taste in reading. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] A number of people ask, are you going to write another novel? And can you tell us a little bit more about what you're working on right now? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I don't have any plans yet to write another novel. Louise and I have talked about that, but she also had to get back to finding out what happened to Gamache, because, you know, unless she started writing, she wouldn't know. And so, I love -- you know, I love her book so much. I don't want to interrupt it. So I'm not exactly sure kind of where we are in the process of maybe writing another one. But right now I'm writing a book of essays that is both personal and political. Kind of the -- you know, taking a look at both my -- what I've learned over the course of my life, especially in recent years. You know, things like friendship and, you know, the joys of, you know, being a woman of a certain age and what that means in, you know -- because you never really believe you are the age you are and so how do you deal with that. But also, you know, about the insurrection. And so I kind of told my publisher, I said, well, you know, it's kind of a combination of broccoli and ice cream, I guess. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] A feel-good book, I mean, is there a working title? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] What? 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Is there a working title? Is it called something yet? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I'm down to like the last three or four choices. How do you get your titles? I need to ask you that. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Yeah. I mean, sometimes they just come to me and sometimes I have to like workshop them and just -- you know, you just try to get as close to perfect as you can. But sometimes -- 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] They rejected broccoli and ice cream. I can tell you that. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Son of a bitch. Well, I will tell you, though that, you know, they -- when you are a young writer, they will say that the happiest day of your life is when you get to go home and tell your parents that someone is publishing your first book. And I can tell you that's true for everyone who did not call their first book Good in Bed.

[ Laughter ]

 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah. But that was a really good title. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Yes, thank you. I thought so, too. But my mom, Fran, who had not believed I was writing a novel and every time I said she would say, oh, yes, the novel in this like really like Scarlett O'Hara on the fainting couch kind of way. And so, I came home and I said, you know, Fran, that novel you didn't think I was writing, well, you know, it's been acquired as part of a two-book deal and it's been optioned in all these countries. And she's giving me this big hug and her eyes are full of tears. And then she pulls back and says, what's it called? And I say, Good in Bed. And she says, what was that? I said Good in Bed. She says, Good and Bad? I said, no, no. The other thing. And then she said, Jenny, how much research did you do? So, it was a whole thing. But if you need some help, just get in touch. I'm happy to -- 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I may be calling you. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] -- happy to workshop. And the last question I'm going to ask you, this is a fun one. On the lighter side of things, if you could be any Disney character. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh my god. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Real Frozen. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh, my good, wow. Any Disney character. Well, I'm sort of -- I mean, you know, really, you think in longevity terms, who's been around a really long time? Snow White? I don't know. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] The dwarf thing's weird. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah, it is weird. Although we must have watched something called Snow White Live a million times when Chelsea was a little girl. Yeah. Honestly, I don't -- I've never thought about that. I -- 

[Jennifer Weiner:] There's, you know, there's like Moana and Tiana -- 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh yeah, that's true. [Inaudible]. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] -- and like Merida. Like the new ones. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] My granddaughter's choices. You know, I would feel like I was, you know, in -- 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Appropriation? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah, it would be appropriation. I would be impinging. I've watched all those movies pretty endlessly. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] OK. So come on, give me some help here, like -- [Male Speaker:] Mulan. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] We got one very -- Mulan? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] That's a good one. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] I mean that's a good one. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] That's a very good one. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Yeah. You know. [Female Speaker:] Merida. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Which -- Merida? I am a Merida stan. But I mean, remember Lilo and Stitch? Like was Stitch the one that like ate everything and didn't talk to anyone. Like that would -- that would be my personal choice. But I'm not you. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I don't that's -- I don't think that's you at all. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Really? 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] No, I don't think -- 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Stitch was fun. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] -- I don't think that's you at all. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Stitch was a creature of pure appetite and joy, in my opinion. It's been a while since I watched it, though. I don't know. I don't know. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] I guess, you know, if I have to pick one, I think, you know, I like the ocean so Moana, I guess. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] Moana. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah, Moana.

[Jennifer Weiner:] And Lin-Manuel Miranda wrote your song. So, there you go. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Yeah. I could sing all the way across the ocean and I'd get to hang out with The Rock. I mean, what's better than that?

[ Laughter and Applause ]

 

[Jennifer Weiner:] It could get a lot worse than that. And on that happy note, the Secretary and I are going to exit stage left. I've been told our books are for sale -- 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Oh, good. 

[Jennifer Weiner:] -- out front somewhere. So, you know, buy early and often. And thank you all for being a part of this tonight. 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton:] Support the library!

[ Applause ]

Thank you.

[ Applause ]

[ Music ]

[Aidan Flax-Clark:] Thanks again for listening to Library Talks. Hillary Clinton's many books, including her novel State of Terror, co-written with Louise Penny, are available at the New York Public Library, of course, and all you need is your library card. And definitely Jennifer Weiner's dozens of books are available too. So, get all of them. You can also listen to Secretary Clinton's podcast, You and Me Both, anywhere you get podcasts and look out for Jen's next book in 2025, The Griffin Sisters' Greatest Hits. Library Talks is produced by Christine Farrell with editorial support from me and our theme music was composed by Allison Layton-Brown.